BSMS 58 - How to get hired as a marketing leader

Brian Graf: Hi there, and welcome to episode 58 of B2B SaaS Marketing Snacks. I'm Brian Graf, I'm the CEO of Kalungi, and I'm here again with Kalungi's co founder, Stein Hendrikse, who's a serial SaaS marketing executive and ex Microsoft product marketing leader. In this episode, we're talking about how to get hired as a marketing leader.

How do you do that?

By treating yourself like a company and marketing to your target audience. We'll go through the big areas of the company, Focus on in order to make yourself stand out and get the job from strategy to execution to interviews.

We hope this is helpful and happy hunting.

Okay. So we've been talking about a lot of things from the executive point of view, but what about from the marketing leaders point of view or, or marketers point of view, what do you think you need to focus on too?

Really get hired and almost nail your niche as an employee and not as much as a company. 

Stijn Hendrikse: Yeah, I learned here through failing a lot. I started doing Practical executive work only at But we had a transaction with MightyCall, the last startup where I was a CEO before I kind of ventured out on my own. And I started to blog, I had some time, I first started to blog on a regular basis, not daily just yet.

I started doing that a couple of years after that. But for a couple of years I just was stuck. So I can copy what other people did, maybe an opinion on it, but not necessarily if you're too far off the path that others had laid down. And that really didn't work. What I found, and this is probably around 2018, so about Six years ago, seven years ago.

But you really have to dare to declare, you have to declare kind of what your unique perspective is, what your point of view is, where you will have a different opinion, where you will take a stand. And that is kind of related to picking a niche, but it's slightly different. Picking a niche is sort of saying, I think there's a market out there that is not getting exactly what they need.

It's either a market who can benefit specifically from my superpowers, and I can give them things that are unique. And because of that, they'll pick me over anybody else when I, you know, I'm providing or proposing my services as their marketing leader. Or you kind of make it easier for them to work with you, you know, maybe it's for a computer, for a price, could be a function that you are available and someone else is not, that you're available at the right time or available in the right place.

But it's usually one of those two things. You help clients differentiate for you, you are available less friction. That helps you kind of build that niche. But I'm talking about something else, but really I think if you get hired as a frictional marketing executive, or maybe even some other executive positions as well, that you really have an opinion.

You have a stance, you have a different perspective and you're, you're able to then bring something totally unique in value because of that. And it could be. Because you were part of a unique turnaround story, or you dealt with a specific challenge, or you were part of a certain stage that a company went through that is very specific, very special.

And then, of course, if that's in a certain industry, or given a certain size company, right, all those things help. But then, Just having done that and having that on your resume is not enough, I think now you have to, with the way you communicate, with the type of content you build, with the way you position yourself, you kind of make that your brand.

And that consistency will help, of course, that you make that kind of red, the red line through your resume, through what you do as a fractional executive. Well, that I think is more of the bigger theme Brian, that I try to kind of say when I, when I say take a stance and have an opinion. Does that make sense?

Brian Graf: Yeah, and I think a lot of it, it's funny, I mean, it's not, it's not exactly the same. But a lot of people have a similar opinion to that as they as a lot of companies do right with but I could I Could work for a lot of different companies. I don't want to I don't want to pigeonhole myself.

And I don't I don't want to take a stand because I don't want to close any doors that that might be open out there Right and it's understandable, but Doing so really, I think it ends up hurting you in the long run just because you'll, you'll end up attracting Companies that aren't a good fit.

That isn't a good fit long term and maybe you will get a job faster. But it won't be the right job. You won't be able to have as much value for that company. And it won't end up working out as well in the long run. So Yeah, I completely agree with you and I've been able to work with you over the past, you know, however many years the effect of your approach and it really does pay off.

It attracts doing that and really committing to it attracts the right companies to come knocking at your door. Instead of you having to go fish out, you know, companies out of LinkedIn. And go cold email people. And they're bought into your methodology. They almost come in as a warm lead.

Instead of you having to break down doors, to go, you know, find the right opportunity. So yeah, I fully agree. I guess, do you want to start with thinking about yourself in the market? You know, especially with social media and LinkedIn and hiring firms and agencies and everything, it's a really crowded space.

Really, you know, almost regardless of what position you're, you're applying for. And so how do you think about Understanding what the needs are of hiring companies and making yourself stand out 

Stijn Hendrikse: Yeah, there's one rule. I mean you sell yourself as a consultant. You almost have to do so by consulting.

And if you find a company interested in your services They probably have a need that you can talk about you can come up with some meaningful way to To assess the situation to provide perspective to talk about how you would handle something like that It's doing it in a way that doesn't, you know, make it, make it sound like you're still going to get the job.

It's really about helping. And providing someone that's hopefully for free and without expecting anything in return. And I think that's a great way to also show off your strengths. And how you not only do it, but by actually doing it.

Brian Graf: Yeah. I guess let's actually, I've changed my mind. Let's start with taking a step back and thinking about, think about your ICP almost as an employee. Like before you can attract the right company, you need to know what that is. Right. And so what factors do you look for in a company that makes it appealing to you to work for and how, how can other people think about that?

Yeah, that's a great point. I think there's two things that have to match, right. In any kind of successful, Employer employee relationship or client consultant relationship. The need has to match the supply. Hundreds of supplies have to match each other. So when you think of the supply, it's of course about your position.

And we talked about your superpowers, your strengths, how you declare yourself, the position you take, when you take a stand, et cetera. And now the ICP is the other side of the coin. How do you fit in? In certain types of clients. Is there a certain stage of growth that you have a lot of experience with?

Is there a certain type of B2B or B2C? In a certain, you know, use case. Is there a team already built that has to be managed? Is it the team in shambles? Or they don't have a team at all and they need to be hired from the start? Are there things that you basically bring to the table that make you work?

A very improper expression, but then you, you should turn into what your ideal client profile looks like. Just like you on the other side, we have an ideal candidate profile, what do we need in our next CMO? And you should have an ICP for that, the type of client you look for. And it could be the size of revenue, the size of people, the stage of maturity, the type of challenge they face, You will have a certain type of product or type of value property in a certain industry.

All those things do make up that ideal customer profile. And then the challenge that you then also have behind this, that there's also a person you will work with, the CEO, the founder, and maybe also other people in the executive team, that are really an integrated part of your ICP analysis.

If you have a phenomenally well-fitting type of company, But the person that you would work for is not going to fit the way you work, or the type of research you're doing are not complementary to the CEO. So you kind of have to extend, or extend your ICP also a little bit. What do you look for in the type of leader you want to work with? You'll notice that the pool of companies that you're looking at really starts to narrow down, right, of course. But also, if you think about it on the flip side, the candidates that will stand out for the role narrow down even more drastically. And so thinking about your resume and your career so far and where you've been able to add value.

Like, as you were mentioning. What if, in your past, have you helped to turn around a bad situation. Then maybe you can start to leverage yourself as a specialist in terms of saving companies that are in a downward spiral. Or you have a high growth, some high growth companies in your background.

So now you become an expert on that. That skill set is very different from, you know, say a steady mature company that's already large and has a big budget. The priorities are different, the tasks are different, the initiatives are different. And so you can start to specialize and showcase your advantage.

According to those, according to industry, or even according to the go to market type. Is it product led, is it marketing led, is it sales led. All those things start to You can start to pick and choose and combine those types of attributes and you become hyper specialized quite quickly and really start to be able to stand out from the crowd.

The only other thing that I'll say is, you know, on the CEO side, I'll just steal from Dave Gearheart, but he likes to say you always want to work for a CEO that knows marketing. As a marketer. You don't want to, you know, And that stuck with me. You don't really want to go and work for a CEO that wants marketing to just be an instant profit machine.

Or doesn't understand the mechanics or the timeframes associated with marketing. You want somebody that either knows it and appreciates it or really wants to learn. And you can be that thought partner for them. I've always liked to think about that. 

Stijn Hendrikse: It's a tricky problem. Because you don't want the CEO to think they can do it themselves.

You want someone who appreciates it, who understands the challenges, who can value good marketing and has the patience for doing it well without going to micromanage you as the CMO. So that's a tricky balance. Yeah. I would also, any interview, we'll get back to that later, I guess, interview questions, but I would always ask, you know, what happened here before we have. What happened to the previous person?

What happened to the previous agency? What happened to you doing this yourself? And what did you learn from that?

Brian Graf: Locked in your ICP, you've locked in your key persona right as your CMO or CEO and who, what you want them to care about. What you want their strengths to be. So now it's almost time to, to use the marketing analogy more, it's time to start thinking about your content plan. And there are few people better than you signed to, to talk to about this.

How did you, how did you start to think about that? I've heard from you that if you have to write something down more than once, then it should be a blog. But what's your, what's your methodology? What do you think about it? Showcasing your skills and taking a stand the right way. Yeah, in 

Stijn Hendrikse: Today's world of asynchronous media and consumption of information, there's no way around it, you have to publish your thoughts, your content, your standards, your analytics, the branding that you want to build.

Because people will consume it at their own leisure. It could turn on your channel of their choice. It could be audio, it could be a podcast, it could be videos, it could be reading what you wrote. So unless you put some of that out there, you're not going to be able to fit in whatever 20-30 minute interview all the things that you, you know, have to offer.

But you have to publish, you have to do that. And what I found is, the hardest, but also the most effective, is to do this consistently, to try to write something almost every day. But first and then later maybe you could slow down a little bit. The person will learn, you know, what resonates, what works well with your voice, try different content types, but most importantly, try to do things that are relevant.

And relevance for me starts with you. Thinking about questions that you actually encounter with the people that you help, the people that you service, the questions that you find hard and hard to answer. And then you do a little bit of research and you make sure that you answer them in a way that they have not been answered before.

I'm satisfied with the response. You can make it better, but it's your own content. And doing that on a regular basis is a good start. That's how the T2D3 book evolved, Brian. It was basically a combination of about 10 years of writing blog articles and other types of content, and that became a book over time.

It is honestly something you can do in every part of your role as a consultant. Whenever you are preparing for a presentation, for a client meeting, you can do it. The questions that you're going to ask, you're doing something with the answers that you got. All those potential content, like everything that you do, that is kind of a net new question, a net new problem, a net new solution, is worth writing, spending a 10 20 percent extra time to write it up in a way that is reusable, be can be repurposed and be beneficial for others.

And that becomes your brand, that becomes your resume. Right. And now, of course, LinkedIn is a phenomenal platform to not only publish, but also constantly connect and, and help others and reach out and engage and, and make that cool and go very far. And then when you're working on landing a certain project or a certain engagement, this will be the foundation of your, of your brand and of what you have to offer.

What would you say to people that, that maybe hear that and say, Oh, you know, that's a nice idea. It sounds great, but I don't have time for it. Right. Or, or it's just not quite important enough. I'm a busy person. I got a lot going on. What would your response be to that? 

Stijn Hendrikse: Yeah, time is the most valuable thing we have.

We cannot make more of it. And once we use it, we'll never come back. Very, very much. You can still try to make more. And you can actually buy time with money. But first you have to make money, make sure you use your time in the most effective way. And. And maybe you're buying time and money when you hire other people.

But let's, let's kind of go back to your question. You make a choice if you have five minutes or five hours in a given day, what to use that for. And I would say building your own brand, your own resume, your own value is a very important part to prioritize. And it's honestly not that hard often when people say, I don't have time for a good heart, you know?

And yeah, hard things are usually worth doing, but they're also hard . Yep. You gotta focus on it. You gotta force it a little 

Brian Graf: bit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I always like the phrase, and I don't know who said it but, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and, and the second best time is today.

Right. So you, you almost think about this content. Production and library as. You know, you have to, you're trying to plant a forest. And, it's not gonna, you're not gonna get a forest if you don't. If you don't, if you don't plant the trees. So, you may not have time today. But do you honestly have, do you have the time to not do it, honestly?

And, you know, on the flip side? I look 

Stijn Hendrikse: forward to it. No more excuses, Brian, because with the chat GPT type tools, you can do the actual thinking yourself, come up with the right questions, with the most fundamental ideas, right, the things that nobody has answered yet, or you have a unique opinion, a unique perspective.

And then you can let the AI help you, and make sure the format is correct, and turn it into a small blurb, to maybe points on LinkedIn, and a full article, and maybe another type of content. It's so easy these days to let that work be done by others or by the tools that you are at your disposal. You should really focus on what you do best, which is helping the clients that you know better than anybody else with the problems and the solutions that you know better.

Brian Graf: And I guess the last two things I'll say on this is that it may not be your cup of tea But it's especially with all the tools that you just mentioned. It's other people's cups of tea and the longer that you don't produce the more disadvantaged you will be right as people start to think about candidates because Other people who are not as capable as you and and don't have the experience that you have Will be publishing right and you won't be and you'll be left out of the conversation 

Stijn Hendrikse: You also need to know what you want, right if you I'm looking for a type of CMO big that is like more of a project, a problem that you want to really put your teeth in.

That's a product launch or brand refresh, or it would turn around through the creation of the building and then kind of launch a new marketing team. Those are very different types of work than landing a maybe six, seven year tenure marketing leadership position at a large company. Right. So, and so when you know what you want, it becomes much easier to then say, okay, what People that I would service, what would take care about rather than what should I write about?

What should I publish, how should I be known? Or 

Brian Graf: Can I answer those questions? Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so the last piece of this, you know, let's see if we can get down to tactics of the interview. Right? So we've thought, we've gotten the SEP, we've gotten the personas, we've got our content strategy. Now we have leads coming in right to the funnel. And we're having conversations. So we're, we're in the interview stage.

What advice do you think you have for people as they go into those interviews, what can they do again, to stand out and take it? I've always heard that if you answer the questions the right way, then you're able to control the interview. So instead of you sitting on your, on your back foot and just responding, right, you can actually start to direct the conversation and, and add the value that you think you can is most beneficial.

What do you think about that? And what advice would you have for our listeners? 

Stijn Hendrikse: Yeah, there's a really interesting balance that you need to strike. You want to, in this day and age, you want to be super proactive. If you come to an interview like this, it's like a traditional job interview where you're kind of sitting back and answering a bunch of questions and then you prepare for the questions.

What would you like to say if they ask for you? What is the most challenging thing I've ever done? These days, especially in an executive position, you're expected to come to the table with a plan, like with an opinion. This is how I would, this is my 30, 60, 90 day plan. This is what I would do with your position.

This is how I think about your website. Like all these things that you could prepare for. You And then the last thing you want to do is show up and just talk. You have to ask a lot of questions. But if you come to the table with a plan, with an approach, with an opinion, with a position, you can actually deliver that in the form of questions.

Have you thought about this? How would you say this has gone for you in the past? Is this working? And I think Being curious in that sense, not just asking questions mechanically, but really being interested to learn as much as you can in the short time you have is almost critical. And what I found very useful, there's a technique that's often used so of course, The recruiter probably used a technique called STAR, what was the situation, what kind of was the solution that you presented, what was the outcome, etc.

What action you took and then the result in the STAR acronym. I like to use MALBEC as a candidate, you can use MALBEC. MALBEC is the sales methodology that talks about What are the metrics that a prospect cares about, like what are the business value metrics, who's the economic decision maker, what's the decision making process, what are the decision criteria, the decision making process also includes who else is going to be involved in the decision.

Now this is actually a really good prep for a job interview as an executive. Because you should not come to a job interview without understanding what is value, right, for the company. What, why do they hire for this role? How to come to this role ultimately? And, and if you don't know, those are great questions to ask.

What are those metrics that really constitute success for this role? Well, of course, economic bio is more like a confusing decision here. Who are you talking with? Are you talking with someone who wants this job to be filled yesterday because it fills a big hole in their capacity of leadership team? Are you talking with someone who's a little bit skeptical and may not be a supporter of maybe the type of, So you need to figure that out quickly.

And then of course, decision criteria, decision making process, those are good things to figure out in this interview as well. What are you going to look for when you make your decision? What else are you kind of considering? What am I competing with? It's totally fine to ask those questions. I think productivity there is showing the top strength, and it shows that you're not necessarily Begging for the job.

The negative sale works just as well in recruiting as it works in real selling. Try to almost unsell yourself and be super clear on what you expect and what you want to have clarity about before you would consider an engagement. So I'm gonna move back if that helps. 

Brian Graf: Yeah, that's super helpful. I do agree.

Try to be as curious as you can about the company and learn as much as you can. If they, they're asking you a case question or want your, your thoughts on a certain area of their company. Ask questions, learn as much as you can about the details. And really start to dive into the problem.

And as you're saying, right, become. Consult in the interview. That's, that is, I think, in general, the easiest way to, to show real, real impact. 

Stijn Hendrikse: I think they used the Why How Ladder. When you ask something, ask them why, and try to figure out the why behind a certain metric, the why behind a certain approach, the why behind a certain priority.

And then how they did that in the past, I mean, what worked and what didn't. 

Brian Graf: Yeah, why is this important? Why, what's the context behind this. And then how does this work? What are the numbers behind this issue? And then start to use your experience, right, to be able to really make your answer tangible instead of something theoretical that, you know, may or may not resonate, I think is really, really important.

I also, to your point of the, of the, the negative sale. Understand, use the part of your interview to ask real questions, you know, that will impact your decision and theirs. Then, in the interview, I've been a part of too many interviews where all I ask the interviewer will ask, do you have any questions?

And I get hit with, you know, so why do you like working at the company or something kind of boilerplate. That, that doesn't, you know, it's not, not wowing me and it doesn't show true interest in the role or, or the company. Joe. Ask questions that will help you make a decision on if it is the right fit or not.

Like what are the goals of the marketing team to use a marketing leader as an example. What are the goals that the marketing team needs to hit in the next year? What team would you be working with? What are the dynamics within the team? What big, what are the biggest challenges that you have as, you know, with marketing?

How much support are you gonna give me to get on board? Or are you gonna hire me and just leave me and it's up to me to figure things out. What's the budget that I'm gonna have? Is it gonna be zero? Is it gonna be 10 million? Who knows. All those things are very telling, right, of A, the type of company that you're gonna be working for, and B, the problems that you're gonna have to solve when you get in there.

So, The interview may go swimmingly. And you'll, you think it's perfect, but then you ask these questions and understand something differently, or you understand that it's the perfect fit. And you're going to do everything you can to get this role. So I think that can be really helpful as well as you're going through those.

Thank you to Adriana Valerio for producing this episode and the Kalungi team for helping us make this whole thing work. And of course, you chose to spend your time with us. If you want to submit or vote on a question you'd like us to answer, you can do that at Kalungi. com slash podcast. Every time we record, we take one of the top three topics and jam on it.

See you next time.

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